Results 1 to 7 of 7
  1. #1
    Official PoE Seller
    LastPoeSeller is offline

    Posts
    279

    [Possible] How NPCs are affected by our attacks? (Copied/ not my work)

    I was doing some research and came across this article. I'm not sure who amongst us have read it but thought you guys might enjoy reading this. I certainly did, and went out and bought 20 rapiers.

    Choosing a sword for battling NPPs

    [This is not my work and I am claiming no credits whatsoever, all credits go to author] Click here for link to actual page on Y!PP forums

    This is based on the very enlightening post by AizIril on how Non-Player Pirates handle swordfights.

    In that post, AizIril said that NPPs keep track of the number of blocks of each color they receive, but not their position. When they are dealt a breaker, they break a random fraction of the accumulated blocks of the appropriate color.

    AizIril showed that color balance was important: if your drops are overwhelmingly a single color, then that the NPP can send a huge break back at you once they get the right breaker.

    He showed an example comparing a 2x6 drop on the left with a scimitar and a stick. The stick's drop is overwhelmingly a single color, which makes the stickwielder and his mates vulnerable.

    However, that example isn't representative. The stick is very monochrome for that case, but for other strikes (for example, a 2x6 in the 2nd and 3rd columns, or a row of sprinkles) it's not so bad. So we shouldn't conclude from Aiziril's example that the stick is terrible against NPPs.

    This begs the question:

    What is the best sword to use against NPPs?

    Since I, for one, fight NPPs about ten times as often as players, this is a very important question. We need some sort of rigorous criterion to compare swords, which looks at the entire sword pattern rather than particular cases.

    Suppose we consider two cases: First, a big-block strike player, who sends the brigand a random mix of long sword strikes, equally likely to be from any part of the pattern. Second case, a good sprinkler, who sends brigands the bottom two rows of her pattern over and over and over. In reality, weak strikes will make the bottom row more commonly-sent than the others, but ignore that for now.

    So now for any sword pattern, we can find the average block-color distribution sent by a given sword: for the striker, we count the blocks for each color in the whole pattern: for the sprinkler, we only count the bottom two rows. For example, over the bottom two rows, the rapier has exactly 25% of each color; the cleaver is almost 50% a single color.

    The way we pick a sword is to say, "What's the worst a brigand could do with this?" Uneven color distributions are bad because they increase the chance a brigand could send you a really overwhelming strike if it breaks the dominant color. So our criterion is the maximum color fraction in the sword's pattern. A pattern whose colors are 25% of each color would score a perfect 0.25; a pattern which was all red would score a worst-possible 1.0. Bigger numbers are worse.

    This criterion is unbiased, but not always realistic. You could pick a different criterion and get somewhat different results.

    Shown below are the block counts for each color (for a red-red weapon, not that it matters), the total blocks, and the maximum fraction of a single color. The lower this number, the better, as indicated by the rather arbitrary star rating. (This table might linewrap and be hard to read if your window isn't wide enough)


    Full pattern (strikes)

    ? ? ? ? ? ? Red? ?Green??Blue? Yellow? Total?max(fraction)?Rating:
    Stick? ? ? ?5? ? ?5? ? ?6? ? ?2? ? ? ?18?? 0.33? ? ? ? ? ***? ? ?Stick
    Foil? ? ? ? 4? ? ?8? ? ? 8? ? ?4? ? ? ?24? ?0.33? ? ? ? ? ***? ? ?Foil
    Short Sword?3? ? ?8? ? ?8? ? ?5? ? ? ?24? 0.33? ? ? ? ? ***? ? ?S. Sword
    Long Sword? 11? ? 6? ?? ?11? ? 8? ? ? ?36? 0.31? ? ? ? ? ***? ? ?L. Sword
    Rapier? ? ? 8? ? ?10? ? 10? ? 8? ? ? ?36? 0.28? ? ? ? ? ****? ? Rapier
    Dirk? ? ? ? 9? ? ?6? ? ?7? ? ?8? ? ? ?30? 0.30? ? ? ? ? ***? ? ?Dirk
    Skull Dagger6? ? ?6? ?? ?6? ? ?6? ? ? ?24?? 0.25? ? ? ? ? *****? ?S. Dagger
    Poniard? ? ?8? ? ?10?? ? 8? ? ?10? ? ? 36? ?0.28? ? ? ? ? ****? ? Poniard
    Stiletto? ? 4? ? ?8?? ? ?8? ? ?4? ? ? ?24?? 0.33? ? ? ? ? ***? ? ?Stiletto
    Scimitar? ? 7? ? ?8? ? ?8? ? ?7? ? ? ?30 ? 0.27? ? ? ? ? ****? ? Scimitar
    Falchion? ? 11? ? 7 ? ? ?7? ? ?11? ? ? 36 ? 0.31? ? ? ? ? ***? ? ?Falchion
    Saber? ? ? ?11? ? 8? ? ??11? ? 6? ? ? ?36?? 0.31 ? ? ? ? ***? ? ?Saber
    Cutlass? ? ?7? ? ?11?? ? 11? ? 7? ? ? ?36? 0.31? ? ? ? ? ***? ? ?Cutlass
    Cleaver? ? ?14? ? 5 ? ? ?3? ? ?8? ? ? ?30? 0.47? ? ? ? ? *? ? !! Cleaver

    Lower two rows only (sprinkles)

    ? ? ? ? ? ? Red? ?Green Blue? Yellow? Total?max(fraction)?Rating:
    Stick? ? ? ?4? ? ?4? ? ??4? ? ?0? ? ? ?12? ? 0.33? ? ? ? ? ***? ? ?Stick
    Foil? ? ? ? 4? ? ?4? ?? ?4? ? ?0? ? ? ?12? ? 0.33? ? ? ? ? ***? ? ?Foil
    Short Sword?3? ? ?4? ? ?4? ? ?1? ? ? ?12? ? 0.33? ? ? ? ? ***? ? ?S. Sword
    Long Sword? 4? ? ?4? ? ?4? ? ?0? ? ? ?12? ? 0.33? ? ? ? ? ***? ? ?L. Sword
    Rapier? ? ? 3? ? ?3? ? ?3? ? ?3? ? ? ?12? ? 0.25? ? ? ? ? *****? ?Rapier
    Dirk? ? ? ? 7? ? ?0? ? ?2? ? ?3? ? ? ?12? ? 0.58? ? ? ? ? *? ? ? ?Dirk
    Skull Dagger2? ? ?2? ? ?6? ? ?2? ? ? ?12? ? 0.50? ? ? ? ? *? ?!!! S. Dagger
    Poniard? ? ?4? ? ?2? ?? ?4? ? ?2? ? ? ?12? ? 0.33? ? ? ? ? ***? ? ?Poniard
    Stiletto? ? 2? ? ?4? ? ?4? ? ?2? ? ? ?12? ? 0.33? ? ? ? ? ***? ? ?Stiletto
    Scimitar? ? 2 ?? ?2? ? ??6? ? ?2? ? ? ?12? ? 0.50? ? ? ? ? *? ?!!! Scimitar
    Falchion? ? 4? ? ?0? ? ?3? ? ?5? ? ? ?12? ? 0.42? ? ? ? ? **? ? ? Falchion
    Saber? ? ? ?4? ? ?3?? ? ?5? ? ?0? ? ? ?12? ? 0.42? ? ? ? ? **? ? ? Saber
    Cutlass? ? ?1? ? ?3? ? ?4? ? ?4? ? ? ?12? ? 0.33? ? ? ? ? ***? ? ?Cutlass
    Cleaver? ? ?5? ? ?3 ? ? ?0? ? ?4? ? ? ?12? ? 0.42? ? ? ? ? **? ? ? Cleaver



    If we go by this criterion, everything you thought you knew about sword choice in PvP is WRONG when fighting brigands. (For the rest of this column, I'll use celebrity-column boldface formatting. Enjoy!)

    If you're a strike fighter, the most evenly color-balanced weapon is the skull dagger, which is perfectly balanced.. The rapier and scimitar are also good. The worst weapon is a big surprise: the cleaver. As I said, it's almost half a single color (red, in this case). When the bot gets a red breaker, you're doomed.

    If you're a sprinkle fighter, the most even weapon is the rapier, which is perfectly balanced. There is a massive tie for second place, which includes such surprises as the lowly stick and foil. The worst weapon is the dirk, followed closely by the skull dagger and scimitar.

    The best-in-show weapon is probably the rapier, which comes in first for sprinkles and second for strikes. The worst is probably the cleaver, which comes in last for strikes and is tied for third-from-last for sprinkles.

    The much-maligned stick is no better or worse than a foil, short sword, or long sword by my measure.

    These results don't change much if you worry about the extra sprinkles from weak breaks that use only the first row. The rapier is still good; the skull dagger and cleaver are still bad for 1-row sprinkles. The scimitar is quite well-balanced in the first row, though.

    In summary, you might want to carry around two weapons with you: one for brigands, one for players. And maybe, instead of howling when someone brings a stick on board ship, we should be complaining about the cleavers!

    I'd like to get feedback from more experienced swordfighters on whether this makes sense -- in particular, is the criterion I've chosen appropriate?

    Last edited by LastPoeSeller; 01-26-2012 at 11:26 PM.

    My ONLY skype from today (4/05/2015): OriginalLastPoeSeller

  2. #2
    Junior Member
    Fosforic is offline

    Posts
    27
    Ugh, well xd. The bad part about this, is that it's a guide from 2004 ! I'm not sure if you checked the date. And that's not that a much of a good sign. There have been some significant changes to the swordfight puzzle and its weapons if you compare the period from 2004 to 2012. Falchions and skull dagger's patterns were reformated, just to name a few. It's hard to name down a list of everything but i'm sure most of this now will be somewhat inaccurate. While general points like these :

    "Uneven color distributions are bad because they increase the chance a brigand could send you a really overwhelming strike if it breaks the dominant color."

    are still true, the high-tier sword comparisons are not. I'm not going to skim through the whole thing to find all the inaccuracies but I wouldn't state this guide as a 100% truth .

    Truthfully, anything above a rapier is good enough to do well. And player skill still outweighs your sword choice. If you know how to build efficient breaks that will convey in large attacks, you can easily pick a foil and still do well. But yes, you would be pushing some easy pattern through. However, in most cases, bots do die after a deadly blow. So i'm not quite sure if it is really THAT much of a big problem.

    Less experienced players with cheaper swords isn't that much of an issue. They wouldnt build large or wouldn't know how to, so a weaker sword wouldn't even be that much of a problem. Weak swords are generally not that ineffective if you play with small attacks.

    The part about the cleaver however, makes a valid point. One half of the cleaver's pattern is not good at all.
    Last edited by Fosforic; 01-27-2012 at 08:34 AM.

  3. #3
    Official PoE Seller
    LastPoeSeller is offline

    Posts
    279
    Yes, I do realise it is outdated and certain things have changed, but I thought it would be an interesting read nevertheless.
    It's not my guide to edit, this was just a copy and paste job.
    I was doing some research and came across this article. I'm not sure who amongst us have read it but thought you guys might enjoy reading this.
    I was implying it's rather old, but hey, no one can prove that mechanism's against Brigand's changed. I'm not a swordfighter myself, it was just an interesting read. Thought others might enjoy it.

    Edit: As I have previously stated, I'm a forum whore, of course I checked the date, but this was the most relevant article I could find.

    Edit:
    [This is not my work and I am claiming no credits whatsoever, all credits go to author] Click here for link to actual page on Y!PP forums
    Last edited by LastPoeSeller; 01-27-2012 at 08:40 AM.

    My ONLY skype from today (4/05/2015): OriginalLastPoeSeller

  4. #4
    Junior Member
    Fosforic is offline

    Posts
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by LastPoeSeller View Post
    Yes, I do realise it is outdated and certain things have changed, but I thought it would be an interesting read nevertheless.
    It's not my guide to edit, this was just a copy and paste job.

    I was implying it's rather old, but hey, no one can prove that mechanism's against Brigand's changed. I'm not a swordfighter myself, it was just an interesting read. Thought others might enjoy it.

    Edit: As I have previously stated, I'm a forum whore, of course I checked the date, but this was the most relevant article I could find.

    Edit:
    Not entirely sure if I understand the way you are replying since it's way off to what i wrote . It wasn't my intention to imply " woah!!! didn't you check the date?!?!? that's old!!! Why you post this?!?", or anything like that. So sorry if you perceive it that way. I was merely commenting to the article itself.

    But anyways, I was merely stating that because of the period it was written in, certain statements made are just not true anymore. I'm not sure on where they exactly patched up some swords, But I seem to have found that the scimitar was reformatted after the date of this article. And since it IS mainly a sword comparison article based on patterns, it does punches a few holes in some of the author's theories. But as I said before, the general outlines are not necessarily wrong. Obviously huge differences as saying a foil is worse than a falchion still apply.

  5. #5
    Ex-Staff Member
    Quetzalcoatl is offline

    Posts
    96
    I wouldn't say I've put much thought in this, and don't hold me on what i say.
    But from what I've noticed, Swords don't really matter on Battling most NPC's, I MAA a lot, using a stick/foil most the time, and My combo's take out, or attack as they should as if I were using my Falch.

    On the note also, I am an Ultimate Swordfighter, (Not the Neo/ult kinds :P)

  6. #6
    Banned
    Cryoma is offline

    Posts
    431
    The cleaver is baller and can troll hard against falchion players.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Xalyx is offline

    Posts
    326
    It's not rather old it's super old. Everyone knows that rapiers are the best against NPP. That was proven (or theorycrafted) YEARSSS ago.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •